There was an article written by Austin Burton of Dime last week where he wrote a story about Michael Jordan. More definitively, he wrote a story on how Michael Jordan was not definitively the greatest player of all-time. He did state that he is the best player in NBA history, but the margin isn't as widespread as fans will tell you. Yes, he's better than Magic, Bird, Kobe, etc. However, he's not THAT much greater than the 3. Its like Jordan being a 99 and Magic and Bird being 98's. Its an interesting article that is a great 15-minute read.
I preface this post with referencing that article to say this, in the competitive era of pro basketball for the last 30 years, Michael Jordan and the Bulls dynasty got off easy. Yeah, I said it. (Leon)
I truly believe after looking at basketball in the 1980's and the 2000's, that the level of great basketball players and great basketball teams were much stronger in those eras versus the 1990's. Let me make a cross-reference, the Bulls teams of the 90's remind me of Roy Jones Jr.'s dominance where he was pummeling any foe that was put in front of him, destroying cats at will. However, many pundits will say that Jones never really had any competition, and the competition finally caught up with him when he got old.
I think I could definitely say the same thing about the Bulls.
Lets look at the dynasties that basketball has had since 1980.
1980's: Lakers - 5 rings, Celtics - 3 rings, Pistons - 2 rings
1990's: Bulls - 6 rings, Rockets - 2 rings
2000's: Lakers - 4 rings, Spurs - 3 rings
Solo championships - 1983 Sixers, 1999 Spurs, 2004 Pistons, 2006 Heat, 2008 Celtics
Now, we all know the story of Jordan and his upward battle become the game's elite player and carry the Bulls to becoming an elite team, but I look back at what transpired before in the 1980's and after in the 2000's and I think Jordan missed some major bullets.
Think about the teams that were really good in the 1980's, of course you have the championship legacies of the Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons, however, the 1983 Sixers team (Mo Cheeks, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Andrew Toney, Darryl Dawkins, etc.) is still considered one of the greatest teams in NBA history. The Rockets were an awesome team in the 80's, (lost in the '81 & '86 finals to the Celtics) with Ralph Sampson and Hakeem Olajuwon forming the original twin towers. The Atlanta Hawks had a phenomenal team, with Dominique, Spud, Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, and Co.
One thing I notice immediately is that all of the great teams in the 1980's had supremely strong frontcourts, and we noticed in the 1990's that Jordan and the Bulls definitely struggled with dominant frontcourts. In the 3 toughest series the Bulls had ('92 Knicks, '95 Magic, '98 Pacers) all of those teams had big frontlines and some really tough players. Fact: The '92 Knicks and the '98 Pacers are the only two teams in history to take the Jordan Bulls to 7 games. The Knicks had a ferocious frontcourt with Ewing leading the way, followed by Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason, and Xavier McDaniel. The Pacers had Rik Smits and the Davis boys, who lets be real, were super goons in the late 90's. The Magic team in '95 had Shaq and Ho Grant, and the Bulls couldn't do anything against them.
Now, we look at the Rockets dynasty of 1994-1996. How the hell does Chicago match up with them? First off, they have NO ANSWER for Hakeem Olajuwon (who is in his prime) at all whatsoever. Even if they had Rodman they wouldn't have had an answer. Plus, a young Robert Horry is matched on Pippen (lets remember that when Horry got to the league, folks were saying he was the next Pippen) and with his length (pause) he's gonna give Pip some problems. Of course, MJ destroys Vernon Maxwell, but doesn't that get equaled by Olajuwon? Also, MJ's not going in the lane like that against Olajuwon, so he's shooting more jumpers. Even if the Bulls beat the Rockets in the 1993-94 season, the 1994-1995 would've proved to be even more of a challenge with the addition of Clyde Drexler. Again, is it so definitive that the Bulls would've just ran through the Rockets?
Plus, the competition of other great teams were severely lacking in the 1990's. The Sonics were always good (and this was my favorite team growing up) but again, poor coaching and no real killer on the squad hurt their chances. The Jazz were always pretty good, but they got to the finals when the West got weak. Yeah I said it, plus I've always thought Karl Malone was seriously overrated, and when he got to the finals he got exposed as just a decent go-to guy. He wasn't a killer either. Realistically, the Bulls cost the '92 Knicks/Blazers a ring (could you just imagine a '92 NBA Finals with the Knicks and Blazers? Someone would've died), the '93 Suns a ring, the '98 Pacers a ring, and that's it. Because I can't sit here and say that I felt any of the other teams in the 90's were real threats for a title. San Antonio? Hell no. Cleveland? Hell no.
Moreover, if Jerry Krause would've done his job and kept MJ and the Bulls together for 2-3 more years, do they beat the '99 Spurs? The 2000-02 Lakers? MJ has to retire around that point, but Shaq and Kobe could've easily ushered them out the way just like Jordan ushered Magic and the Lakers out the way in '91. If the Bulls in '96 (72-win season) were stuck in the 2000's, I think they would struggle with a lot of the top frontcourts in basketball. The Lakers and Spurs dynasties of the 2000's would be a major headache for the Bulls, because they would have no defense for Shaq or Tim Duncan. Kobe, Tony Parker, and Ginobili would be headaches too. I would even say that the coaches in the 80's (Riley, KC Jones, Chuck Daly, Billy Cunningham) and the 00's (Phil Jackson, Gregg Poppovich, Pat Riley, Larry Brown) were WAY BETTER than the 90's (after Phil who? Tomjanovich maybe, Jerry Sloan maybe, but George Karl? Rick Adelman? Paul Westphal? Puh-leease)
Michael Jordan is still the best player in NBA history. The Chicago Bulls rival the 60's Celtics as the most dominant dynasty in pro basketball. Yet, the 1980's and the 2000's were just better, period. February 17, 1963 was a good day for Jordan, the city of Chicago, and the NBA...because if he was born a year or two off-schedule, I'm not sure we have 6 rings and the Bulls dynasty.
OK...PLEASE DON'T KILL ME. LET ME KNOW YOUR HONEST THOUGHTS. FEEL FREE TO SEND ALL HATEMAIL TO ED@EDTHESPORTSFAN.COM
-Ed.
http://www.edthesportsfan.com/
Comments
25 Responses to "Michael Jordan and The Bulls Got Off Easy..."Apples to oranges with the eras my man.
Jordan DEFINITELY is the greatest, although, as stated, the margin isn't huge. The thing is, Jordan had no weakness: great shooter, great driver, great dunker, great finisher, great free throw shooter, great passer, great on-the-ball defender, great post defender (for a guard), great at getting in passing lanes, great leader — no weakness. That's what separates him from the pack.
A couple of things...
I can understand your simple response about the eras, but the eras were totally different. Frontcourts dominated the 80's and 00's...Jordan and the Bulls didn't have to face that at all.
Plus, Jordan was supremely great. But he had some 7-28 shooting nights, he had some nights when he got torched on D, and some nights when he got dunked on. Yes, it happened.
All I'm saying is that, the comp he had in the 90's was not nearly as good as it was in the 80's or 2000's...
-Ed.
I don't think they got off easy at all. The Rockets didn't get one until Jordan retired. Think of all the hall of famers that Jordan kept from getting a ring. Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, John Stockton and You Know the list goes on and on. Not just hall of famers top 50 all time greats that his airness (and the bulls) denied from getting a ring.
The most ridiculous article of all time. The belief in the lack of perceived competition in the 90s should only serve as a testament to just how dominant the Bulls and Jordan were. The Bulls were champions then, would be champions in the 80s, and would be champions now. You failed to point out that the 95-96 Bulls are thought of by many as the best team of all time. You talk about the change in style of the game between eras, but you don't figure that the Bulls would have adapted to that change. You're comparing apples to oranges and making an extremely flawed assessment. Ask Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller (all Hall of Famers) why they don't have a ring...the answer is Jordan and the Bulls. Got off easy?!?!? Wow...I can only say wow.
@anonymous This is true about the Rockets not winning until Jordan retired, but the Rockets ascended to where they were at when Jordan left. It isn't their fault that Jordan wasn't there. Plus, much is not said about how the '95 Magic mopped the '95 Bulls, then how the Rockets swept the Magic.
@Bill Ross - Buddy, nice to see you man! Long time no see lol...now, its funny that everyone automatically brings up Barkley, Malone, and Miller...but like I said, they were all individual players on their teams on teams I don't think were great. There were multiple GREAT teams in the 80's and 00's. That's one premise of my argument, there weren't any great teams in the 90's, and maybe it was because of Jordan's dominance and the Bulls team, but Jordan didn't have to face frontcourts like the 80's Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons, and it wasn't until they got OLD until Jordan finally beat 'em. Same for the 00's...I think Jordan and Co. woulda struggled against the Spurs and Lakers.
Sure they mighta won, but stringing off 6 straight would've been much tougher. The Bulls struggled mightily with very good frontlines, and never had to face one in the finals. Karl Malone? Puh-leeze.
-Ed.
I'm on both sides of the fence with this one. I see you Ed, one of my main problems with '90s basketball was that there was only ONE KILLER, and that was MJ. Some might argue Miller (meeh), Hakeem (monster, but no killer), Charles (my boy, but still, no killer), don't forget about Eddie Jones (beast! lol) but who else? Jordan was ending games in the first quarter sometimes. In the 80s you had Magic, Bird, Isiah, 'Nique, and Moses. This decade has Kobe, DWade, Lebronjamin and Duncan, and Shaq-- and that's about as far as I'm willing to extend that list.
However, I'm not willing to necessarily say he was lucky. Every other player in the '90s had the same resources that Jordan had. They all had the opportunity to get their asses in the gym, they all had the same weight training programs, same scouting reports, same film sessions, but no one worked on their game like Jordan. No one else had that same drive. No one else had that same competitive spirit. That, my friends, is not luck.
You can also argue that playing against those great 80s teams really helped them out going into the '90s. Dudes were already battle tested going into the decade.
There really is no way Jordan's Bulls win six rings in the 80s (well, he did go from 84-89 without one, so that really can't be argued lol) and no way he wins six rings in the 2000s with those Kobe-Shaq Lakers and Duncan's Spurs dominating the decade. No way in hell.
um, everyone has nights where they shoot 7-28 and get torched on D. Hard to be perfect every night, 82 games a year. I know what you're saying, but that's like saying the 27 Yankees got off easy b/c they didn't play Negro League players.
It's all apples to oranges. You can only play who you play against, and Jordan dominated like no other since the Russell C's.
@ Rev
Thank you for bringing some logic into this thing.
@ Phil
One killer??? Ask the '93 Sonics if Sir Charles aint a killer, or those GS Warriors teams (after Webber dunked on him, Sir Charles came back in the playoffs and put 56 on their heads), or other Western conference foes in the early-to-mid 90's. If Barkley gets more help, they beat the Bulls in the 1993 Finals, and this is coming from someone (me) who damn near worships Jordan. The Bulls had NO BUSINESS winning all three road games in Phoenix, but it wasn't because of a lack of killer instinct in Charles Barkley.
Same goes with Hakeem. Hakeem was a serial killer, an axe murderer, a mass murderer, you name it.
I don't see how people can stomp their foot down and say "no way in hell" the Bulls would have won in this era. You can't make a statement like that. I can make ridiculous statements too, but when it comes down to it all you have are opinions. People want to compare streaks and eras and all this junk, but you really can't. All you can look at is, Which teams DOMINATED their competition? And none of the teams or players you talk about dominated their competition like Jordan and the Bulls. You want to equate that with weak compeition, but its more a testament to just how great the Bulls were. Final point...how do two teams DOMINATE an era. That's an oxymoron. Logically speaking, if two teams are great, then one or both really aren't dominating. 80's...Celtics/Lakers. 00's...Spurs/Lakers. 90s...Bulls stand alone.
@Kenny
I'm someone who damn near warships Charles Barkley but we all know he didn't have the same drive Jordan did. He wasn't always in the weight room, he wasn't always working on his game, and there were stretches during seasons where he seemingly didn't give a f*ck (I'll have to find you the article I read about this, I didn't make this up lol, fascinating though). I mean, I love Chuck like no other basketball player before or after his time, but he wasn't a killer. He just didn't have the ability to crush a team's chances of winning a game from the jump, he wasn't necessarily feared in the waning moments of the game, he didn't have the offensive skill set to be able to gone to in every situation.
@Bill
You're right lol. Two teams dominating a decade is an oxymoron. But you knew what I meant. They were the two clear cut best teams of the decade, and I'll put both of those teams up against Jordan's Bulls and I wouldn't bet on either of them. The Western Conference is a whole lot better than it was in the 90s, and the WCC, whether it be the Spurs or the Lakers, would give the Bulls serious problems. And the Bulls not winning six in the 80s is a fact, they had six solid years in the 80s and didn't beat Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics or Isiah's Pistons once. He beat Magic's lakers when they were old and flabby like Larry Holmes lol. To be confident that Jordan, with that '91 Bulls team, would win against the 2002 Lakers or the 2005 Spurs, in my humble opinion, is foolish. Six rings in this decade, with the increased athleticism, scouting, and every other advancement seems nearly impossible. This is not a knock on Jordan, because he is the greatest of all time, I just think it would be a lot more difficult.
How is LeBron Freaking James a killer, but Sir Charles aint?? Don't get me wrong; I love The Kang too, but if he's Shooter, then Charles Barkley is ol dude (Liam Neeson) from Taken...hahaha. I think you're punishing Barkley and saying he's not a killer, because he's being compared to Jordan. That just isn't fair.
The Seattle Sonics woulda played the Bulls in 1993, if it wasn't for Barkley. We gotta find the tape, so you can get a reminder of how much of a killer Barkley used to be. To quote Bill Walton,
"he plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."
To say Jordan Had it easy is taking away from that mans greatness. He made it look so easy yet it was a very difficult road. Remember Jordan is responsible for Ewing, Magic, Thomas, Malone, Stockton, Drexler,Payton, Miller, Shaq, worthy, Barkley,Kevin Johnson, (conf finals and finals) from winning a championship. In which 9 of the players I just named are considered 50 greatest players to ever play. Now a lot of your articles are based off of what ifs, but you can't take away the fact the the bulls had dominate TEAMS. THE bulls never had a dominate center but there team defense was far supurb than any others. Yes I agree Hakeem is the greatest center to ever play the game, but think the bulls kept a roster of at least 3 or 4 7ft centers and great role players. There centers could face the basket and knock down the 10-15ft jumper. Patrick ewing, and charles oakley/charles smith, was not a small front court.(pacers also had a big front court) Now horry/pippen match up, once again even in winning a championship Horry still didn't play to pippen. Horry has always been a big shot shooter but what else has he done? He wasn't a ball handler or defensive threat, or even that fast. Pippen did it all! Remeber when jordan retired the bulls were 1 game away from the finals, led by Pippen. I will say much of the bulls hardest competition came in the conference finals, Bulls literally had to FIGHT to get to the finals.knicks, Pacers, Pistons all beat up on the bulls. As Far as the 95 magic, we all no that Jordan wasn't Jordan yet and he proved that the very next year 72-10 and a championship. Jordan made every one on his team play on a level, they didn't even know they could and you can tell that because after he retired the role players never looked the same. Let's not forget the bulls superb role players. Kerr, armstrong, kucoc, davis, winington,longley, harper, hodges, grant, cartwright, salley, bushler, com on man the bulls was a stacked team and jordan as the cheif had all his players on 1 accord
Good article. I think this arguement spans across a lot of different areas. Who's the greatest and what journey did they have to overcome to get there. But at some point, it is what it is. From Lennox Lewis to Jay-Z...there's something to be said about beating who's in front of you...because a lot of people don't do that.
A few points:
If Jordan hadn't retired Bulls would've won 9 out of 10 titles in the 90s. (sidenote...Pistons won in 90, not two in the 80s...with your math you got 11 champions in the 90s and the 99 Spurs was a strike shortened happenstance)
If Jordan could dunk over Ewing...Jordan could dunk over The Dream (who's one of my favorite players ever)
Jordan had three peats with two TOTALLY different squads...save Pippen. This includes the remarkable talent of Randy Brown, Cliff "Good News" Levingston and B.J. Armstrong. I ain't sayin'...but I'm sayin'.
Internal spats or "schisms" didn't happen on a Jordan led Bulls team. People knew their roles...were happy to play them...and didn't question them.
If all talent is equal...you find me 5 players in NBA history with the DRIVE and WILL to win that Jordan had. I'll give you maybe Gremlin-Faced Kobe and Larry Joe Bird...you gotta complete the rest of that list.
I've been sayin this for some time. So I won't disagree. I will acknowledge Jordan's greatness and he beat who was there.
He just didn't have to struggle through great teams for his rings not like Magic and Bird squaring off against each other for a ring.
I think the 90s Bulls would have had an easier time with the Spurs than the Lakers. Spurs don't have anyone to really make MJ work and the Lakers have Kobe, and the Pythagorean Theorem of Centers.
As for will/drive to win equal to MJ's: Allen Iverson is one and Magic Johnson. Can't think of another.
Ed, good stuff as usual but i disagree with you on a few points you made.
The '95 Magic weren't all that superior to me (just ask the Houston Rockets). You have to remember that MJ returned late in that season off his 1st retirement & definitely showed some rust (outside of the double nickel classic at MSG).
I'll never forget Game 1 of that Eastern Conf. Semifinals when Nick Anderson stripped MJ near midcourt, then fired down to a streaking Horace Grant for the dunk, and one. A healthy Jordan in his own mind would never get embarassed that bad.
That's why we came back to sweep Orlando in the very next season during that magical 72-10 campaign in '96.
I do agree that Houston would've given us a run for our money had the two teams met up in the Finals. Olajuwon was absolutely lethal at center, add that with a younger & a better defensive Robert Horry, three-point specialists Kenny Smith, Mario Elie and a very good 6th man in Sam Cassell.
Could've easily been the best Finals ever, as both teams leaned heavily on their superstarts with also an amazing supporting cast.
@Kenny
I don't know where my mind was this morning. I don't even like LBJ and I said he was a killer and my favorite player of all time wasn't. Scratch King James off the list and add Iverson and Barkley.
I actually have that whole '93 WCF and Finals on tape at home. I really thought the Suns were going to win it and had my mom tape all of the games because I had baseball games a few of the nights. But I know what he did to the Sonics and my best friend's boy Shawn Kemp (monster). He also hit that game winner over Robinson that year and came back on the Lakers, from down 2-0 in the first round. I was six at the time, and I still remember watching those games with my dad. I wanted to grow up and be like Charles, not Jordan. But then I didn't grow lol.
Ed-
I disagree with your argument. I think the competition in the 80s and 2000s was just as good. Basketball was evolving and there was a mix of players in the game during a huge transition. In the 70s and 80s the game was more about the fundamentals, in the 2000s most players don't even understand defense let alone attempt to play any; its all about scoring. 2000 is the And 1 generation where everyone wants to be like Hot Sauce. The fact that MJ won 6 championships without ever having the dominate big man is impressive. I don't think Will Perdue, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, or Bill Cartwright (with that great shooters stance) scare any center worth his salt on the court. MJ did it on the offensive front as well as defensive front. When its all said and done Kobe will not have the success that MJ did (MJ without the frontcourt; Kobe did have Shaq for all but the last championship). Lebron although still very young hasn't won yet although I think he will but can he do it without the dominant presence in the middle?
Carter B
Jordan is considered the greatest, not because of the rings. you youngin's focus too much on the damn rings. He is considered the greatest of all time because he brought IT from day 1 on the court from all ends. He might not have been winning from day one with the bulls, but he was lambasting the league from the get go. people forget how truly bad the bulls were before mike got there. Kobe landed on the lakers, only the second most championship winning team in nba history, MJ landed on the bulls, a team which had never done squat. Lets get one thing straight, in the late eighties when mj was having his best personal numbers, what today is called a flagrant 1, was considered a normal foul. today's "great" players benefit from a really loose whistle when it comes to the refs. During MJ's first 8 years, people where allowed to beat up on him, literally, and he still dropped 30+ on the league consistently. to the earlier poster who said that hakeem was the best center, you must be young, and definitely do not know your basketball history, the best center ever was and is Kareem abdul jabbar. Look up the numbers, numbers don't lie. now lets look at mj's numbers compared to KB.
MJ Kobe
Seasons 15 13
Championships 6 4
Finals Played 6 6
Olympic Medals 2 Gold 1 Gold
Season MVP 5 1
Finals MVP 6 1
Def.Plr.Year 1 -
Scoring Titles 10 2
Steals leader 3 -
Rookie oftheYear yes no
Season:
Points per Game 30.1 25.1
Rebounds per Game 6.2 5.3
Assists per Game 5.7 4.7
Fld Gl Per. .487 .447
3-Point Per. .332 .329
Free Throw Per. .828 .811
Total Points 5,987 4,381
Total Games 179 175
as you can see, championships alone don't make Mike the greatest, he did it on both ends of the floor, and for a long time. I'd like to see Kobe get 8 more scoring titles, or defensive player of the year (by the way, the year michael did that, he was also the leading scoring, and steals guy in the league, beside getting mvp honors). Kobe has never lead the league in steals, has never had more than a hundred blocks in a season, etc etc. yet he gets compared to mj because? a couple of scoring titles and a big games against defensive nobodies does not make you better than mj. congrats on the ring, but championships alone do not make you the GOAT.
@H2theOh! - First off, thanks for coming by and checking us out. However, the connotation was never that Jordan WASN'T better than Kobe. The argument is that the competition Jordan faced in the 90's was lighter than what was there in the 80's and the 2000's.
Yes, there was a great collection of talent in the league in the 90's but they weren't assembled on great teams like the Lakers, Celtics in the 80's and the Lakers, Spurs in the 00's. Unless you count the Jazz, which in my personal opinion I don't. I think Stockton and Malone woulda been extremely valuable #2 guys but were never suited to be a #1.
-Ed.
Ed neglected to admit that he is an avid Michael Jordan hater. Jordan smashed the Utah Jazz. Jordan and the Bulls were so good they made great team look very average. Its really that simple. Yea he struggled against the pacers and knicks but he won. Back to the Jazz..Jordan beat the Jazz and the Jazz beat the Rockets hence jordan is covered once again.
Did you neglect to mention the Bulls broke the NBA record for games one in a season? COME ON ED step ya game up. Dont hate ...get ya change up...time for a change up.
My favorite Michael Jordan moment was the shot he hit against the Utah Jazz in the NBA Finals to close out the series and win his 6th title. He pushed Russell out of the way, swished the jumper, and then left his hand dangling in the air.
While Jordan may be the best shooting guard in NBA history, he is by no means the best player. That title goes to Magic Johnson. The only player who could have played any position on the court and made it into the Hall of Fame. If you claim Jordan could have done THAT, you are lying. True, he beat what was left of the Lakers, but the Celtics also beat the Lakers the first time they faced each other in the finals in 1984. Then Magic & Co. whipped them the next 2. Larry Bird called Magic the best he's ever seen.
Which leads me to my next point. Jordan never had to face Magic after that first Finals due to his HIV. Had Magic been able to keep playing in the league, with Jerry West working his GM genius, they would have been back in the finals.
No way Jordan beats Magic twice.
NO. CHANCE.
This shows another way the Bulls got off easy. The fact they only once faced the same team twice (Jazz) which also shows the weakness in the league. Every year the Bulls faced someone different with NO finals experience. (We saw how well Orlando fared against the veteran Lakers in the finals last season.)
MJ23 greatest player at all times!!!never been kobe!!!emitator kobe!! the living legend MJ23...til forever!kobe needs big man but MJ NOT!!!MJ can play alone w/o big mans...but kobe won't!!!
Teams that were better than any of the Bulls championship teams....72 Lakers, 83 Sixers, any of the Laker or Celtic teams of the 80's whether they won a title or not, and on and on.....
I know im commenting years later but probably the biggest problem i had with the argument from this article is the point that was made about the Bulls having trouble with good backcourts. No one decided to mention the final outcome when they played the "good backcourts". The outcome was the same. they still won. who cares if they had trouble? In the end, the only stat that matters is the W, and thats the exact stat Jordan and the Bulls put up numbers in. 72-10. 6 championships.
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